The homosexual rights movement started with just wanting sodomy to be legal and not be imprisoned for their “personal” behavior. Then they claimed all they wanted was the right to have their partner visit them in the hospital. That was followed by saying all that they wanted was civil unions so they could have all the rights of a heterosexual couple – but don’t worry, they would never seek marriage if they could just have civil unions (if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck… The Church opposes “civil unions” See this interview “What the First Presidency has done is express its support of marriage and for that bundle of rights belonging to a man and a woman… It really doesn’t matter what you call it… whether it is civil union or domestic partnership or whatever label it’s given, it is nonetheless tantamount to marriage. That is something to which our doctrine simply requires us to speak out and say, ‘That is not right. That’s not appropriate.’”). Now, in the United States, the battle is over allowing sodomites a legal marriage, but they insist that they would never force a Church to marry them.
If history is to be any clue as to future events of a group of people, it should be no surprise that the first country to pass civil unions for sodomites is now forcing churches to perform gay marriages. As reported in the June 7th 2012 edition of The Telegraph, the Denmark Parliament “voted through the new law on same-sex marriage… making it mandatory for all churches to conduct gay marriages” (emphasis added). Currently the law only applies to the state-run churches, the Lutheran Church of Denmark. Fortunately, at least for now, this law has no bearing on marriages performed in the Denmark Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, it is clear that the anti-family, anti-liberty agenda of the homosexual lobby, is to force everyone to endorse their activity as not only “alright” but acceptable in the eyes of God.
Elder David A. Bednar spoke about this during the Prop 8 election in California and warned, “one of the potential consequences growing out of this [prop 8 failure] is that we may find a decreasingly tolerant environment for our beliefs as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” He went on to further warn that there would be court decisions that would say, “If you have a Church, and it does not recognize same-gender marriage, that’s discriminatory and you should not be allowed to do that. It is not wild and crazy to suggest that there could be sanctions against the teaching of our doctrine…” and that the “tyranny of tolerance” would lead to “the inevitable clashes between religious liberty and free speech.”
The cries of the supporters of sodomy have been consistently dishonest, and the warnings of Church leaders have been, dare I say, prophetic. How much longer until Denmark forces the Church to marry homosexuals in Chapels or even the Temple? And how much longer after Denmark takes that dark path will the United States follow?
I’m alarmed by the potential prospect of state intrusion into our private religious ordinances, but I find your tone offensive. Your graphic at the top is a fearmongering tactic, and it’s more than a little hateful to call gays “sodomites.” If you really want to add to the dialogue, try to foster some mutual respect. I believe that is what Christ would teach. I know it’s what our church leaders have taught.
To quote Dave from the above post:
“I am alarmed by the potential prospect of state intrusion into our private religious ordinances,
but I find your tone offensive.
Your graphic at the top is a fearmongering tactic,
and it’s more than a little hateful to call gays “sodomites.”
If you really want to add to the dialogue, try to foster some mutual respect.
I believe that is what Christ would teach.
I know it’s what our church leaders have taught.”
I am trying to figure out how you could possibly accuse this person of being “being hysterical and not addressing specifically why [he didn’t] like [the article]”.
I wholeheartedly agree with all 7 of the points he made.
His “tone” was calm and well-phrased.
He AGREES with the main thrust of the article and is ‘alarmed by the potential prospect of ‘state intrusion into our private religious ordinances’.
He said nothing about the propagating of misconceptions.
He did not accuse you of saying that this demographic of people should be hated.
His main concern seemed to be that you could have used a tone that was more respectful.
And yes, ‘sodomite’ IS a word–perhaps more commonly used in the realms of medicine or law as a technical term. But many ‘run-of-the-mill’ citizens view it as a deep insult–conjuring deep-seated hatred of a condition we do not understand, and giving tacit approval to hate and loath.
we queers have rights to and we want to get married for time and all attoritty in heaven jkurt like the prophet joseph smith did
I assume that you are being sarcastic. I hope that you are not so naive as to believe that the Holy Spirit would ratify such a sealing even if it would occur, which it wouldn’t ever!
I find your tone offensive and accusatory. It is a classic example of ” The truth hurts” There was nothing incorrect in the article. Some times you just have to live with getting your, “little feelers” hurt.
I think it is wonderful that we can now get merried in the temple my partner and I flew over and got hitched
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.
If Homosexuality is a perversion as so states in the Bible, then how do you think you will ever inherit the celestial kingdom where Eternal Marriage will exist? It is the only kingdom by which the sealing is viable and lawful. We have to living a Celestial life to inherit this kingdom; pure and free from all manner of perversian from the sins of the world. Please start reading the Bible and Book of Mormon.
You know, while I would normally agree with you, Dave, it seems that the appeal you make for mutual respect these days, is code for, show me tolerance by “agreeing with me.” You’re call for Taylor to change his language about this freaking awful sin (sodomy) is similar, in my opinion, to calling a murderer, something soft and more agreeable, like “hurtful person.”
Good for you Taylor, call it was it is. It’s down right perversion of what is good and right. It’s sodomy. It doesn’t deserve some special appealing name.
Man always wants to soften the blow of truth. Originally, “abortion” was something that happened by mistake, “aborticide” was on purpose. Somehow we have overlooked the real word. Guess people want to change real words again. Even homosexual is in disfavor. “Gay,” originally meaning “happy” has been stolen from us through popular usage. “Sodomite,” likewise, is no longer acceptable to its practitioners. Euphemisms!
we are Mormons to and have the same rights as others in our church.we love each other pay our tithing have ..recommends to the temple..we are going to be married there or else
Rose – it’s simply a matter of will the civil authorities respect our God-given rights to practice our religion IAW the dictates of our doctrines, practices, and collective conscience. If ANY authority decides that some entities are “more equal than others”, and that their ‘right’ to enter OUR buildings under circumstances that would violates those principles trumps our rights as stated above, then it’s amen to religious ‘freedom’. The Church’s likely response would be to close the Temple, and make arrangement for the affected members to receive ordinances elsewhere.
The answer to any government that requires the church to perform a gay marriage is to close the temple indefinitely until said requirements are removed. God will not be mocked. If it is bad enough in a country to be imprisoned it may be an issue of “calling out” to go to another country rather than offend God. Don’t act like the laws of man are TO BE OBEYED. As in I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS. We’ve heard that one before.
Bob again. Many of you are treating the temples as “TOO BIG TO FAIL” Once a temple is desecrated it is no longer a part of God’s kingdom until it can be Re opened with proper re dedication ceremony. This whole conversation seems devoid of the understanding that there are circumstances where the true church cannot function. I believe once that happens it is up to the Lord to directly intevene to re establish true church activity. The true church cannot simply limp along with institutionalized wickedness practced inside it. It would simply have stopped being THE TRUE CHURCH. IT EITHER IS OR IT ISN’T TRUE.
Bob again. Remember the photos of Pres. George Q. Cannon and other general authorities in prison garb serving prison sentences over polygamy?. That is the answer to government tyrrany imposing wickedness acceptance into church ordinances. Otherwise the church itself would cease to be true.
Temples are for “Sealings” not marriages. The authority to preform marriage is given from the state, and can be taken by the state. However the state has no authority on the ‘sealing’ of an existing marriage which can continue without the state involvement as long as the couple adhere to the standards of the sealing. Eventually all marriages will be preformed outside of the temple and then, if worth, be sealed in the temple.
Umm, a picture of two guys in front of temple. What’s the problem? Oh! They are gay? Well, that’s what the story is about.
The writer is correct. If you are active LDS with a temple recommend I would suggest that you suck it up and realize the homosexual agenda is purely satanic and your feigned opposition to the tone of this article will even show your tolerance of it. There is no tolerance for evil.
Wellll, I don’t think that Denmark (or any other country) is going to be forcing the church to conduct marriages between homosexual couples in temples. It may be the case that bishops may be required by law to do so, but until the LDS church is required to marry EVERYONE in the temple (regardless of their standing in the church, or even if they are a member), then because that conflicts with the standards of the church, they will not be worthy to enter the temple. Why would they allow a homosexual couple to be married in the temple, but not a couple of another faith? Or a person who openly admits to not being a full-tithe payer? Until the temple recommend questions are no longer a part of the picture, things will likely stay as they are.
Jake, I wish I could be as certain of the future as you are, but history teaches me otherwise. It used to be that homosexuals were not baptized, and were exed if it was later discovered that a convert was homosexual. That was then. By contrast, today homosexuals are baptized, serve missions, and are called to leadership positions. By the same token, it used to be that members were condemned for accepting government subsidies. By contrast, today members are encouraged to accept them, and it is difficult to find a member, especially a retired one, who is not partially or totally dependent on government subsidies, just as the Nephites were in Helaman 6:38. Pres. Harold B. Lee said these modern day “spoils” “…are undermining the very fabric of the Church”. It is very
apparent to the honest observer that the standards of the Church have shifted far, far to the left of where they once were. I would not be at all surprised to see the Church performing homosexual marriages in our temples at some point in the future. The excuse will be that it’s necessary to keep the doors of the temple open. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m basing my guess on the strong trend to the left that I have seen in the Church ever since my baptism 40 years ago. Very sad.
I think it likely that the Church will do as is done in England: a civil marriage followed by a temple sealing. This will initially be the way around the homosexual agenda.
In time, however, such a practice will be successfully attacked whereupon I think it likely that the Church will forfeit its tax exempt status as the price to exclude homosexuals.
I tend to believe that way myself
Bottom Line: Mormon 8 tells us that the; “Holy Church of God is POLLUTED”…This is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (I know this is obvious to any thinking LDS member…but believe it or not I have had discussions with LDS folks who believe this is talking about every church BUT the LDS church!…Crazy huh!?!) Anyway…here’s the BIG Question: “How far up the chain of command does the “POLLUTION” go??” IF it goes to the TOP and you “SUSTAIN” the “POLLUTION” then YOU are ‘GUILTY’ of ALL the “POLLUTION” CREATED by the TOP! And thus YOU will held accountable by a JUST God, who “will not be mocked’! On the other hand IF YOU don’t “sustain” the men who claim to be the apostles and prophets…then your OUT of the “FULLNESS”! YOUR CHOICE!
The LGBT community will hit the same wall that the “Ordain Women” have hit. Marriages with sealings will no longer be performed in LDS temples. It simply is NOT in keeping with the doctrines of the church to seal two men or two women together for all eternity. Marriages will be performed civilly, followed by a quiet sacred sealing ceremony in the temple; that simply will not be available to the sexually active LGBT community. Sexually Active members of the LGBT community would not be members in good standing and would not be able to enter the temple anyways. Cry, scream, call it unfair but the LDS ask nothing less of the LGBT community then it does it’s single male or female heterosexual members. Sexual activity excludes you from entering the temple.
I see it going down that way too
Only worthy people are allowed to be sealed in the temple. Your bishop would not be allowed to give an unworthy person a temple recommend. I don’t believe that homosexuals would be considered worthy to enter the temple for any reason unless they were celebut and remained that way after marriage.
If homosexuals are in a civil union or now get even married I seriously doubt that they are going to be totally celebut, right!? Any sexual activity outside of a married heterosexual couple is considered by the Church the sinful act of fornication which causes those members involved to be unworthy oF a temple recommend and this will be the Lord’s sacred Law of Chastity forever!
The church will close it’s temples in Denmark before they would ever allow themselves to be forced to perform homosexual marriages. Wake up and read the history of the church. As a body it left an entire city and state and surrendered it’s desecrated temple rather than tolerate the enslavement of non-believers.
Site me a case where an admitted homosexual serves as a priesthood leader in the Church.
The point is that as long as they are not PRACTICING the homosexual lifestyle they can go as far in the covenants etc as possible.
This possibility does not concern or worry me because if it comes to pass that the Church begins performing gay marriages, I will know without any shadow of doubt that the Church is false, and I will ask to have my name removed from the membership rolls. If the Church is true and Denmark passes laws requiring chapel and temple marriages for sodomists, the Church will ask all Danish saints to leave Denmark and gather with the saints in the USA. And if this legal perversion follows them to America, God in heaven will utterly destroy the USA as he did following the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. And then the American people will be “swept off” as prophsied multiple times in the Book of Mormon.
yes more Mormon bullshit.the church is not true just a money grubbing org.
Ditto.
The United States of America has NEVER been destroyed and certainly wasn’t after the Martyrdom. Yes we had the American Civil War but the country was not destroyed. Illinois was not destroyed, Ohio was not destroyed nor was Missouri.
Just because the name “United States of America” is used today, doesn’t mean the union formed with George Washington and others still exists.
what”s wrong with sodamites getting married and sealed in lds temples .are they not entitled to sarced blood oaths .o no that’s changed now .because it could look like a cult .shame Hoffman was paid loads of money for being a.fake .the church lies to people to get what they wont. so they fake the truth . smith said he had only one wife .the rest were her sisters 33or– o I say were not a queer church.im a Mormon…gays… we…don’t… shun…we.dont.know.that.practice. jr.holland .funk.demark. 1978.
Get a life.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52486958-78/mayne-gay-lds-ward.html.csp
mrl.d.s, what you don’t understand is the difference between Mormon Temples and Catholic Cathedrals. Everybody and Anybody can enter a Catholic Cathedral, Only members in good standing – meaning those who live the gospel laws are permitted to enter LDS temples after they are dedicated. Mark my words, if society decides that all churches MUST perform gay weddings. NO weddings will performed in the LDS Temples, ever again. Go look up the “Proclamation on the Family” on LDS.org. Only Sealings for all eternity will be done in the temples. The church will not be sealing men to men or women to women – that is something that will be sorted out in the millenium not in this life. You just WILL. NOT. SEE. THAT.
The key word here is not “admitted” but is rather “practicing” homosexual which means that individual is having an active or physical sexual relationship with someone of the same sex aka fornication. However, same-sex “attraction” is not considered to be a sin and prevent one from receiving a recommend as long as that attraction is not ACTED UPON aka having a physical sexual relationship.
(It used to be that homosexuals were not baptized). You have to keep in mind that until about 30 years ago it was not common for gays to “come out of the closet”. Therefore, someone with even the INCLINATION (but not indulging in violations of the Law of Chastity) would not typically be open about it. Now, with it being far more socially acceptable for a gay man to be open about it, there is raised the possiblity that a gay (or lesbian) can, provided they don’t give into their inclination, live IAW the Gospel and can be baptised and receive all blessings. This is not necessarily an erosion of standards…merely a clarification that worthniess is determined by conduct, not by disposition.
It is far more socially acceptable for gays to come out of the closet today than in former years. Does that mean the morality of gay behavior has changed? Or does it mean that society is more accepting of immoral behavior? And if society is more accepting, does that mean God no longer condemns immoral behavior as strongly as he once did?
John, obviously Heavenly Father has NOT changed what He says regarding homosexuality, nor have the standards of the Church with regard to chastity been relaxed. Thank goodness.
All I was pointing out is that until recent times few, if any, would admit to having a homosexual inclination due to the huge stigma, especially amongst LDS, even if they weren’t indulging in it. There would have been no reason to deny such a temple recommend since it’s based on conduct, not proclivity. I have a lady friend, who admits to being bisexual and had a “partner” (herself a member, go figure) at one time, but hasn’t had lesbian relations in a long time. After her baptism, it took some time for her SP to be convinced that her proclivity wasn’t reason to keep her out of the temple.
I have to agree with the other person saying if the church gives in to gay marrege in the temple it will just prove the church is false as I have always believed any way
Rose, it’s not going to happen. It’s contrary to the teaching of the church. And no the church is not false BUT if that’s what you want to believe and it makes you feel happy then so be it.
Agreed!
I also take exception that “retired” members, presumably US citizens drawing Social Security, being “dependent” on “government subsidies”, are somehow not in harmony with Gospel teachings. While as a Libertarian I have issues with Social Security in its concept and practice, it seems way out of line to judge members that paid into it throughout their working lives and have a legal ability to claim benefits and do so. Rather than decry members using taxpayer-funded benefits as they severally qualify, I suggest you work within the political system to have same reduced and/or elminated on their respective (de)merits, and refrain from condemnation of members for doing that which is lawful.
Agreed!
The Courts create protected classes and homosexuals are on the road to becoming such. Therein lies the distinction between non-tithe payers, non-members, etc. who would be denied access to the temple.
Protected classes have heretofore been along ethnic and gender lines. Once homosexuals obtain a similar status, present themselves before a bishop, stating that they are full tithe payers and otherwise “worthy” save for their “sexual preference,” their status as a protected class will result in a court mandating entrance.
If otherwise worthy heterosexual members of the church (except for their ‘non-marital sexual experience’) are not allowed to be sealed, there is no reason that the homosexuals would be treated any differently.
Brilliant! You are either worthy – in the way the Lord has commanded us to be – or there is no entering the temple. That simple. Same-gender marriage may become legal one day, after the manner of men, but IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE UNLAWFUL according to the commandments of the Lord. Remember: “no sexual relations, except with their HUSBAND or WIFE, to whom they are (both) LEGALLY and LAWFULLY wedded”.
Laura – I’m a bit baffled at what you would consider ‘worthiness’ for an LGBT member, and I fail to see how one could attain a temple sealing. Like any member, as long as they keep the commandments, including the Law of Chastity, they can certainly do the other temple ordinances. I can see how someone could have once indulged in LGBT sexual practices, but then turn away and live as those members, like myself, who are decidedly heterosexual. I happen to be seeing a lady member who admits to being bisexual and has in the past done lesbian things. AFAIK, she has repented and as long as she doesn’t return to that lifestyle, she should be perfectly worthy of being sealed to me or any other worthy LDS man she wants.
can I have her number .I been told. that I need to help her .
Then The Church and those members whom remain true to the Lord’s commandment known as The Law of Chastity will be forced by a dictatorial state to no longer want to be associated with that unlawful govt. that no longer adheres to individual constitutional rights!
The Government will be lobbied by Gay and lesbian groups, and other liberal groups, to force the church to marry them, or be charged with discrimination, then the church will have to close the temples in Countries that pass such legislation….
BINGO on the temple closings. Study “The abomination of desolation” in the scriptures.
This is because the more radical LGBT folk don’t want “equality” as they inaccurately term it. Largely these are bitter, vindictive, vituperative people who misuse the legal and political system to wage war on those who they resent for not having endorsed their perverted sexual appetites and abominable lifestyle. They want to force peoples and organizations that find their lifestyle choices distasteful to recognize them and disregard the dictates of their own conscience. Translation: the sensitivities of a protected class of people, based upon an exotic combination of proclivity and consensual choice, have trumped the First, Fourth, Ninth, Tenth, and Fourteenth amendments to the Constitution. I once wondered why the Church supported Prop 8, not anymore.
There was a time when my family would of been welcome into the temple and given a full recommend and told we had earned exaltation by entering into plural marriage, but because the Church sought friendship in the government in 1890 to gain statehood for Utah, my marriage is not temple worthy today. I have no doubt the church can we swayed if needed, but thankfully I think for many reasons you argue, this fight might be a long one. I pray the church has strength to stand by its beliefs. I would be upset to see gays allowed in the temple, but my family (and the families of the early prophets, including Woodruff who denounced polygamy yet still went on to marry 10 wives and to seal countless other plural marriages) would be excommunicated before being allowed in today.
Polygamy was…and is (remember men can be “sealed” to more than 1 woman RIGHT NOW in LDS temples! Example: A man’s wife dies and he is sealed to another woman.)…Thus polygamy is FROM GOD! And homosexuality is FROM Satan! PERIOD! IF YOU LOVE the Sodomite tell them that the homosexual lifestyle is an “ABOMINATION” to Heavenly Father. It IS a Satanic SICKNESS and can only be CURED by the power of the Lord via repentance. ZERO TOLERANCE FOR ALL ABOMINATIONS SHOULD BE THE CHRISTIANS MANTRA! “Behold, I say unto YOU, wickedness NEVER was HAPPINESS.” Alma 41:10 LOVE the Sodomites by “Preaching NOTHING save REPENTANCE unto this generation.” This says it all……
Re: The church’s discontinuing polygamy. Yes. The govt.influenced change there. However telling members to stop something is totally different from telling members they must do something. Stopping a practice does not cause members to sin. It means we wait for the future. Like getting the church into communist countries. No one was ordered to illegally cross a border to do church activities. Prophecy says the church will never be taken from the earth again. God will take the steps needed to fulfill prophecy. It is not our place to physically confront government authority. When it comes to that we let the Lord solve it.
Thank goodness. I hope it stays that way.
People are ever ignorant of the truths that are in the bible and either do not read the verses, or simply ignore them altogether. Read Leviticus 18:22. and Leviticus 20:18. A-bomb-i-nation! ABOMINATION: Noun extreme Hatred; detestation. Swift.
2. The object of detestation, a common signification in scripture.
The way of the wicked is an Abomination to the Lord.
Do you really, really think that God respects these kinds of people? No, he doesn’t and because the governments are choosing to do wrong, doesn’t make it right. They are bringing the judgments which will be without recourse. Why did God wipe out SODOM & GOMORRAH? Because they were perverting the natural use of the man and woman, brimstone and fire reigned! Wake up
“Do you really, really think that God respects these kinds of people?”
Are you KIDDING?
The Heavenly Father that I know respects and loves ALL of his children! Our goal here on earth is to become like Him.
Surely there is a way to disagree without such hatred.
This is a terribly difficult situation to figure out–but we MUST leave the judgement of God’s children to their Father, who created them and gave them the agency to to live life on this earth the best way they know–just as all of us must do.
We must not judge people. But we are commanded by God to judge between right and wrong. Must we judge a person just because we find his behavior to be an abomination and totally disgusting? No. But we must judge whether his behavior is right or wrong. Judging people is wrong. Judging behavior is right. There are many without the intelligence or the education to see the distinction.
In the Bible God says He hates Esau. Did you ever read that part? I never read a scripture that says “God loves everyone”. But I am sure God tries to love everyone.
I have faith that God has a plan of salvation for all humans, and in fact all living things. And His plan is based on love. I have felt the Love of God, and deeply appreciate it.
God will pardon (not forgive) unrepentant gays and give them a resurrection and an eternal home where they will be the happiest. He will do that because He loves them.
The Mormon faith, which I accept, shows that the eternal home of unrepentant gays will not be a celestial home. Thus, it will not be on this earth.
I have heard speculation that gays will be given a place on the resurrected moons of Uranus. Hmm
Your pun was not lost on me. LOL
“Do you really, really think that God respects these kinds of people?”
Are you KIDDING?
The Heavenly Father that I know respects and loves ALL of his children! Our goal here on earth is to become like Him.
Surely there is a way to disagree without such hatred.
This is a terribly difficult situation to figure out–but we MUST leave the judgement of God’s children to their Father, who created them and gave them the agency to to live life on this earth the best way they know–just as all of us must do.
It’s only a question of their fate that they themselves control. When Noah saw his ark and such was completed “THE LORD SHUT HIM IN”. The decision to show mercy to the unprepared was taken away from Noah. While the 5 foolish virgins were shopping for oil because they were unprepared the Bridegroom (Lord) brought in the 5 prepared virgins and SHUT THE DOOR. Whatever the rebellious practicioners of forbidden activities are doing when the Lord returns, the Lord has already demonstrated what will be their fate. Mercy cannot rob justice. To the willfully disobedient the Lord clearly demonstrated in the past what He will do. There is nothing complicated or uncertain about it. It’s not a matter of hate or love. It’s a matter of what the Lord has done and will do.
“Do you really, really think that God respects these kinds of people?”
Are you KIDDING?
The Heavenly Father that I know respects and loves ALL of his children! Our goal here on earth is to become like Him.
Surely there is a way to disagree without such hatred.
This is a terribly difficult situation to figure out–but we MUST leave the judgement of God’s children to their Father, who created them and gave them the agency to to live life on this earth the best way they know–just as all of us must do.
The city of Sodom is referred to many times in the Bible as an example of great sinning.
What types of sins? Let’s take a look:
Isaiah 1:10-17
–injustice,
–not rescuing the oppressed
–not defending the orphan
–not pleading for the widow
Jeremiah 23:14
–adultery
[ironically involving us heterosexual married people!]
Ezekiel 16:48-49
–not aiding the poor and needy
Zephaniah 2:8-11
–bullying
–boasting [our sins are not ‘as bad as theirs’]
–pride
[we are His ‘chosen’ people—others are somehow worth ‘less’]
Wisdom of Solomon
— “the bitter hatred of strangers
The sin is not about non-straight sexual orientation.
The sin of Sodom was:
lacking hospitality, bullying, hating strangers, not being just, and not caring for the marginalized of the community.
These are things all of us should keep in mind and put into practice toward the ‘strangers’ in our midst…
It is worth noting that, in today’s society–who is more marginalized, more bullied and more treated like a “stranger,” than our GLBT brothers and sisters?
What if their plight is a ‘test’ for all of us—maybe God wants to see if we will treat these most precious souls who seem so different from us, with love and respect.
Laura, c’mon. Let’s stop the “I’m so righteous because I ‘love’ my neighbor so much” crap. The greatest sins of Sodom and the other 4 main cities in that area were SODOMY = homosexuality, beastiality (sp?), and all sorts of other sins “too wicked to set forth on these scrolls” (Eliezer of Damascus, who witnessed it first hand), and other “sensual wickedness” (as per Bible Dictionary). Stop trying so hard to make it sound like it was all and only about not feeding the hungry. That is not what their great sins were. All those sins you outline above were certainly present. They always are predecessors to greater sins. But what made S&G so extremely wicked began with SODOMY and then got worse. (Con’td)
When you look up SODOMY in the LDS bible Dictionary you get HOMOSEXUALITY. Look that up and you get CHASITY/SEXUAL IMMORALITY with the following scriptures:
bring them out unto us, that we may know them, Gen. 19:5
Thou shalt not lie with mankind … it is abomination, Lev. 18:22 (Lev. 20:13).
There shall be no … sodomite of the sons of Israel, Deut. 23:17
declare their sin as Sodom, Isa. 3:9 (2 Ne. 13:9).
men … burned in their lust one toward another, Rom. 1:27
nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Cor. 6:9
them that defile themselves with mankind, 1 Tim. 1:10
as Sodom and Gomorrha … going after strange flesh, Jude 1:7
doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, 2 Ne. 13:9
Let us not water down what the biggest sins were, while yet retaining the smallest in mind
Agreed!
The key word in the Sodom and Gomorrah history is “folly”. The men wanted to have folly with the male angels visiting Lot. Folly in bygone days only means one thing. Forbidden sexual activity. Ie. The Zigfield follies. Women enticing men to lust after them to whom they were not married.
The above Cite is from Webster’s 1828 Dictionary. If you want to argue with God, then you’ll get what you deserve.
If you examine the comments in this video you will see that the Sexual Revolution was not an accident — it was planned out. The final chapter has not been written yet but it is going as it was intended to:
Pt. 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPrrmCFqs7Q&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LL5MnvKV2CEdKYKZBQK2EW5A
Pt 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8pDbCGGn1s&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LL5MnvKV2CEdKYKZBQK2EW5A
Ah, but here in amerika, WE have the First Amendment to protect US: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” A lot of good it did the early Saints. The early Church experience showed the members in particular and the nation in general what the boundaries were to the First Amendment, regardless of the wording: if your religion’s teachings violate civil law, Congress will prohibit the free exercise of that religion. Of course, that is good for those “religions” that might include virgin sacrifice, for example.
It can be said that allowing homosexual marriages in the temple is not infringing on the rights of another to worship. Speaking legally can get you around just about any clause in the constitution. We’ve been doing it for almost 240 years.
iI dont know,since the government shunned church in the courtroom,classroom,etc..the thing that gets me is The government decided to separate Church and state,,And since then all has went to crap,,no one respects the livelihood of their neighbor,nor when one of our Soldiers gets killed in battle and he is accused of being a homo,when he wasnt,he just happen to get killed,WBBC,,,and we have to take it because of free speach,,But if its free why cant we have prayer back in school,,If they separated church and state,,then let the State build the Gays their own church so their values wont corrupt our Children.In Iran they dont believe in gay marriage, but will let them cohabitate with each other,,you just cant get married.
There are a number of nations left in the world that execute homosexuals. Such sodomy is a capital crime in those nations.
Kingdom has very valid points. The Lord delights in the judgement of his people. I can see why. We are entering into a period where this will occur as has from time to time in past ages. It would follow that since God is the same, He will respond the same, though not necessarily fire, brimstone, or flood but given time, He will respond, especially when agency, His sacred gift is compromised by the wicked.
In the June ’89 Ensign there is an article titled: Be Ye Also Ready”: The Amazing Christian Escape from the A.D. 70 Destruction of Jerusalem By George A. Horton, Jr. Ensign, Jun 1989, 48
http://lds.org/ensign/1989/06/be-ye-also-ready-the-amazing-christian-escape-from-the-ad-70-destruction-of-jerusalem?lang=eng
We should be prepared for the Lord’s judgements as warn
Hmmm, wouldn’t God close his temple doors if his enemies found a way to force their way in? Would a celestial marriage be increasingly harder than ever to come by then? If so, then how fortunate/blessed we are today to receive his eternal sealing. Is temple work so much more urgent to do NOW than we realize? Let us pray and live that the temple doors might not close, yet, work diligently that we might be prepared.
I have a feeling that Heavenly Father will wipe out large swaths of the wicked popuation before He allows His Temples to be completely defiled and His Commandments made a total mockery of. He has done it before and, if we take His Word seriously, He will do it again if need be. Agency is a gift to choose the right and return to a restored state of healthy existence. Those that abuse that gift for license to do the exact opposite and to try to overturn His Laws and Commandments have a rude awakening coming. There’s still time to repent…
Absolutely! I agree completely. Wickedness without divine retribution is like an action without a reaction. It violates Newtonian physics.
Or at least He will test the Saints, wherever His houses and his Church is threatened by politcally-correct nonsense such as is promulgated in Denmark, to see what they’re made of.
Pity that this is the same country that defied the directives of their Nazi overlords to hand over their Jews some seventy years ago, and got almost all of them to Sweden. “Iron men in wooden ships have been replaced by wooden men in iron ships”.
A homosexual is someone who has sex with someone of the same gender. If you are doing that then I cannot imagine one branch of the church baptizing that person, calling that person on a misson, giving them a leadership position etc. Unless the person lies about their obedience to the law of chastity. On the other hand, if you can honestly answer yes when your bishop asks you whether you obey the law of chastity, plus all the other worthiness questions, you can do these things. Suffering temptation – but “not” giving into it – doesn’t disqualify anyone from being baptized or going on a mission. If that ward in the link called an active homosexual, then it’s apostate. Personally, I would quit going to that ward if that’s the case no matter what my bishop says.
I hope the leaders interviewing for baptism are qualified for and receive unmistakable revelation because our world is lierally crawling with liars, and some sins not repented of definitely disqualify a person for membership. I’m thinking of murder, abortion which is “like unto it” and sex sin which the prophets and the Book of Mormon have proclaimed is “second only to murder.”
Sure, everyone can repent. I believe in repentance. I also believe that a lot of people lie about whether or not they have repented.
NO! Their “LOVE” for one another is SICK! Why must so many complicate their thinking with “the thinking of the NATURAL man”…. Quit condoning ABOMINATION(S) and start CONDEMNING!!! Heavenly Father CONDEMNS the Sodomite lifestyle! We should also!>>> IF we profess to be Christians. People repent of EVIL of all sorts everyday!! Hey all you Sodomites, perverts, thieves, liars, adultery, ETC. ETC. ETC…. REPENTANCE is available to ALL! So IF you and I are SMART we REPENT!!! And then and ONLY THEN can we be put on the PATH>>> “The WAY of HAPPINESS”!!! Let’s be smart!!… and CHOOSE HAPPINESS!
Imho the best way to describe it is “forbidden”. Something being sick is a matter of opinion. Something being forbidden by God is a fact. God’s penalties are a fact.
Wow, Mormon bigotry. No surprise there. But just give it enough time. Your powers that be will eventually have a “revelation” accepting gays just like the one that ended your racial bigotry. You can’t possibly win this culture war. Why not accept it sooner rather than later?
Really Gary? so who is the bigot? Please,re read your article.
I’m always amused by those who profess to be surprised by bigotry. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who isn’t bigoted about something. It is an almost universal human failing.
As for the culture war. We are going to win the culture war in a major way at the Second Coming which is probably not far off. We will win because the wicked are going to be burned to ashes. And the righteous are going to walk on those ashes for a thousand years.
Satan has great power. Jesus Christ has infinite power. No contest.
^^^ trololololol
Gary…YOUR in BIG TROUBLE…And you don’t even know it!
I feel sorry for you.
Gays aren’t forcing Mormons to do anything. The government is. Make sure to direct your hate at the right people.
And the Gays are forcing the Government. Get off your high horse and speak truth please.
Gays most certainly are forcing Mormons to do something extremely distasteful. They are forcing us to be constantly exposed to their dishonest rant and propaganda.
The government wouldn’t be taking any actions if it weren’t for militant gays relentlessly demanding & screaming that they do so. And LDS/Mormons fighting for what they believe in is not hate no matter who says anything to the contrary.
KK, you’re inflammatory yourself. Further, I feel you, Laura, and Dave are all wearing your “politically correct chip” on your shoulder, not only daring others to knock it off, but calling others names because they speak truth instead of politically correct mumbojumbo. Let’s be very clear that sodomy includes more than just anal sex. Even Wikipedia describes it as such.
Here’s the bottom line anything other than penile/vaginal sex is abomination. Check out the Apostle Orson Hyde’s comments in a talk he gave Feb 11, 1857 about a higher level of chastity within marriage. You can find it on this website.
Yet more proof that the Church & prophesy are true… A day doesn’t go by that the evils of those that oppose Heavenly Father further validate and strengthen my Faith. The times read like a script we already know the ending of…
I think we are all missing the point here. Allow all the agency to live the way they choose & do not FORCE others to accept your beliefs. A government should not be involved in the sacred institution of marriage, and no religion should be forced to accept the marriages of another religion.
You my friend are an aboustle Moron. First even if US passed a law saying that the church had to marry gays. I don’t you could force us to marry gays in the temple. I mean could u see a hetrosexual couples trying to force thier way legally into the temple. Second like you said the denmark law only appiles to state run relgions. This the entirty Slipperly Slope Arugment of the right wing.
I would not follow any Bishop or Church Official into Outer Darkness if they force our church to do this! The Bible is very clear on this. It is an abomination and no unclean may enter the Celestial Kingdom!
Good news! This law only applies to pastors of State churches that previously could opt out. Just read the article cited.
HF loves everyone. He is not a respecter of persons. No unclean thing may enter into his presence. Is sin weighted? Hoe far will the Grace if Christ be able to carry the penitent member which has foul thoughts, doesn’t HT %, goes to the doctor to get prescription drugs for a legal “high”?
there are many sins which we all are guilty and will require the Atonement to reach the celestial kingdom. who are we to judge another’s sin? We are to Love one another, as Jesus loved us and He loves everyone.
The Temple is for members that meet a certain criteria and no one that qualifies honestly will enter. Civil marriage may be performed by the Bishop but no way a sealing will happen for those without temple recommends.
Yes, Heavenly Father does love all his children. But remember, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong, Cain, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Benedict Arnold, and the members of the KKK are his children too. I have sometimes thought he might love some of his children more than these. I’m thinking of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, Mother Teresa, President Monson, Captain Moroni, Mormon, Moroni, and those who have had their callings and elections made sure.
I’m sure Heavenly Father even loves the sons of perdition as he casts them into outer darkness.
sodomy |ˈsädəmē|
noun
sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation. (Just so we all understand our own definitions; not to be inflammatory, only educational. All my gay friends who practice do one of these)
God’s love is not unconditional.
“While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.”
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2003/02/divine-love?lang=eng
I just read through the original article and its links. It is includes a history of same sex unions and marriage in Denmark and refers specifically to the “folkekirke” – which is the people’s church, which is only the Danish Lutheran Church. The piece does not, and did not intend to, extend to other religion’s marriage ceremonies. The ensuing blog piece was written by someone with the intent to stir up emotions and fear amongst the ignorant regarding possible government interferrance with temple weddings. It is NOT happening in Denmark, nor could it happen in America, thanks to the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Is that Elder Nelson’s ENSIGN article? I just love it! And I agree with it too. I an not an apostle or the Prophet, but I have read the scriptures a lot over a lifetime. And if anyone thinks that God’s love is unconditional, they have been skipping over a lot of it.
Keeping up on the news, I’ve been impressed that ANYTHING could happen here in America. I have already seen many things happen that no one would ever have guessed possible.
The government certainly would tell the Church what to do. They even tell God what to do. Why do you think he rescinded his policies but not doctrines regarding celestial plural marrige in 1890? If the government can do that, why not force the Church to perform gay temple marriages? This is a wicked world filled with wicked governments. And if the government cannot force us to change our position on homosexual issues, it can just try to rub us all out like they tried to do in the 19th century.
What is worse, doing something evil or cheering on someone who is doing something evil?
It doesn’t take much research to find past LDS prophets arguing why interracial marriage was an abomination in the sight of God and why Blacks were inferior to Whites.
Now LDS prophets are bemoaning gay marriage.
I predict the current bigorty against GLBTs will fade as quickly as past LDS bigotry against Blacks has.
Who cares if gays want to marry? How does allowing it harm a straight person? The most common argument I hear is that gay marriage would denigrate the sanctity of marriage. Well, with 25% of LDS marriages ending in divorce, it’s kind of hard to support that view when many straight LDS people aren’t regarding marriage as anything particularly sacred.
I don’t think you read my post very carefully. (But given your writing style, I am not surprised.)
I am not proposing that performing gay marriages be forced on LDS temples (or on any religious group).
But I _AM_ saying that:
– The LDS church has a history of bigotry
– LDS racism–advocated and supported by LDS prophets–up to the late 1970s finally waned
– LDS bigotry against gays will eventually change
– To argue against gay marriage because it undermines “the sanctity of marriage” is absurd coming from a culture that in no way regards marriage as sacred.
Gay marriages hurt a straight person in a major way by trivializing marriage. The status of marriage has been dropping like a stone ever since the 1950s when they started changing the law to permit “mental cruety” “incompatibility” as grounds for divorce and “no fault” divorces. Half of all heterosexual marriages end in divorce. Anything that further discredits marriage will make it much harder to build a successful marriage and prevent another broken home. Children from broken homes do not do well. Statistically, they are a major disaster area. Virtually every social ill increases as the status of marrige declines. And gay marriage will speed up that decline because people will not work as hard to stay together.
Labeling it a “gay marriage” does not a marriage make it. Marriage is an institution of civilized society employed for thousands of years to accomplish two purposes: propagation of the race and nurturing the children so propagated.
As homosexuals cannot propagate, calling their relationship a “marriage” seeks to elevate that relationship to a status to which it can never actually attain. In short, it undermines the bedrock of civilized society. It is an attack on the basic building block of civilized society.
Calling anyone who opposes the homosexual agenda a “bigot” is the primary tool employed by progressives: any disagreement with their agenda is bigotry.
Vaqueerro, we’re here, we’re queer, we’re Mormons, get used to it!
Joseph, if you are chaste, you are not queer. If you are not chaste, it is only a matter of time until you leave the Church voluntarily or involuntarily.
Your not a Mormon….you only pretend to be. Your a Sodomite; if you are a ‘practicing’ homo. And Heavenly Father calls you and “ABOMINATION”. You CAN REPENT. God CAN HEAL YOU…IF YOU LOVE Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ YOU can be HEALED of the EVIL YOU defend. I would say; “Good Luck!”… But I don’t believe in ‘luck’…I BELIEVE IN FREE CHOICE! (Sounds like you have ‘chosen’…)
Inflammatory? I’ve heard some inflammatory language on both sides of the discussion. And there are some sins that are supposed to inflame. Child molesting comes to mind. Who is to say where the line is between properly inflammatory language and improperly inflammatory language?
the lds church is full of child molesters.church and boy scouts are being sued cause the bishop choose Charlie big (explative deleted) to take them camping and (explative deleted),and he was choosen by god
The insanity. . . It hurts . . .
How any gay man or woman can stay in the LDS church is beyond me. I grew up an active member, served and honorable mission, came out, and was completely ostracized from the church by almost everyone I knew. Reading these comments just amazes me that this type of mentality can still persist.
You will all dismiss me I know, but just hear this: You will all be ashamed one day, sooner or later, you will feel shame for how misguided you have allowed yourself to be in life.
No one needs your acceptance or approval…trust me. The church is bleeding and there is nothing you can do to stop it, not even allowing teenage girls to go flirt to convert.
And I’ve been to Denmark. It’s easily the best place to live on this sad little earth. You would be lucky to be more like the Danish.
How can “this type of mentality” still persist? It has persisted throughout the entire history of mankind. What ever made you foolishly think it would go away? No one would ostracize homosexuals if they would stay in the closet where they belong because no one would know who they are. Fornication, adultery, bestiality, abortion and gay sex are all abominations. And the Lord destroys nations that embrace such abominations. If gay nations are destroyed, and righteous nations are not, of course such a mentality would persist.
People have different tastes. My favorite places to live are Alaska, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. If you are being honest about your feelings and preferences, who is keeping you here? Move to Denmark. Their loss would be our gain.
I left America and moved to Spain where people are treated equally.
I find it extremely offensive that you refer to our brothers and sisters as “sodomites”! I recognize that the course things are going is frightening, but seriously! Have some friggin respect! They are children of God, just like you and just like me. They have different struggles and viewpoints, just like you and just like me! The way you make them sound when you call them “sodomites” make it sound like all they do is blaspheme and defile everything good, when in reality if any temple worthy member of the church has, dare I say it? Had oral sex with their spouse! Guess what. They would fall into the category of being a “sodomist”. So check your facts and check your definitions and stop hating on people that are imperfect just like you and just like me.
If a sodomite repents, he is not a sodomite any more because one has to commit sodomy to be a sodomite. We all need to repent of our various sins. In that there is no difference between us.
apologize? I am not sure why gay people need to apologize. the boy scouts gets tax breaks from the government… a government for the people of the people. you are a fringe population, and that is truer with every passing day. I am gay, yes, but I am still the same person I was when I was growing up in southern california, mormon, boy scout, and was told I was a child of god just like everyone else and that would never change. but as soon as I revealed that I was gay all that changed. I was suddenly an outcast, a “sodomite” as you call it…
as for the “option” of living a celibate life…. well, as one man put it “it is not good for man to be alone”.
a gay man or gay woman can live in society and not cause a problem. they are no more likely to be pedo’s than you
You said, “A gay man or gay woman can live in society and not cause a problem. they are no more likely to be pedo’s than you.”
That is total nonsense, and you cannot produce a shred of evidence that it is true. If it were true, God would not have forbidden it, that is, he would not have demanded that we all live the Law of Chastity. Basically you are saying that immoral behavior does not cause a problem in society. Nonsense. It brings down entire civilizations. Rome fell, and it did so because the people became vile scum of the earth who would not have children and refused to defend their empire against the barbarians.
so why was eating shrimp an abomination? in the same bible chapter no less??
what you are interpreting incorrectly here is _why_ homosexuality was an abomination under the Mosaic law? Why? Because under the mosaic law, everything that did not “grow the kingdom” by producing more jewish kids was an abomination… so that is why masturbation was put in the same category as homosexual acts, because it was a waste of “precious seed”, since it did not result in childbirth.
As for Sodom and Gomorrah, most if not all bible scholars will tell you that the reason it was destroyed was not because of “sodomy”, but because they were an example of hostility and lacked hospitality, etc.
On a final note, you talk as if the “gay movement” is a recent thing. It isn’t.
Leviticus 11:9-12
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. –
Eating shrimp was an abomination because it was disobedience at that time. The reason gay sex was an abomination at that time and in our day too is because it is disobedience then and now as well. We have living prophets. They have signed off on lifting the shrimp ban, but they have not yet signed off on lifting the sodomy ban. Therefore the shrimp prohibition has been lifted, and the sodomy prohibition has not. Its actually pretty simple if you think about it.
However, I’m sure the question was just rhetorical because you foolishly think there is no good answer to it.
I swear I think that’s the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard yet in this never-ending debate on gays.
Provide a shred of evidence that gays do harm society. The silly, baseless accusations you just made don’t come close to qualifying as evidence.
One of my parents was gay. It was the direct cause of the divorce that left me without a father in the home. I grew up raised by an abusive single mother from the age of eight. I am now nearly seventy and still trying to recover from the effects that nightmare childhood because of my attitudes towards women. I would not have those negative attitudes if it had not been for the homosexual who raised me. This is first hand, eye witness “proof.” Now you give me “proof” that there are not many others who suffered the great injury of growing up in a broken home because of some sodomite that voluntarily chose to not conform to God law.
I’m sorry you had such a negative experience with your parents, but this hardly constitutes evidence that homosexuality is harmful.
On the contrary, it demonstrates that the bigotry toward gays is the harmful thing. Why did your gay father (I’m assuming, since you didn’t specify) marry heterosexually? Because society demanded it of him. He had to hide who he was by comforming.
You would never have had a gay parent if society had let him be who he was.
And if you think your one anecdotal example proves homosexuality is evil, then what do multitudes of abusive heterosexual parents prove about heterosexuality?
Don’t go condemning a whole class of people just because your parents sucked.
You are so full of it. My dad was extraodinarily heterosexual. He died at the age of 79 in 2000 AD. He was married four times, had nine children, and was living with a fifth insignificant other when he died. And my mom was so deep in the closet the three younger of her five children don’t even know she was a pervert.
Sodomists are no worse than heterosexual fornicators. But they are just as bad, and adultery or anything like it is highly destructive and harmful to society and individuals because they cause irreparable injury to children not to mention the adults who transgress. Those who claim homosexual practices do not harm anyone have lost all contact with reality. Breaking up homes is among the worst child abuse there is. Only abortion is worse.
Why are you responding? My reply was for John Redelfs.
But your situation merits the same response. Why was your mother deep in the closet? Because society forced her there.
I can see why you two have issues with gays. But your individual situations are irrelevant to social policy, and irrelevant to whether homosexuality is harmful or not. Both your situations were brought about by the attitudes of society toward gays, forcing them to hide who they are, which I agree causes a great deal of harm.
Gay marriage heals this problem. It doesn’t cause harm.
So far all either of you have provided as evidence is to throw the nasty word “sodomites” around. But what can you do? When you have no valid arguments to present, all you can resort to is vicious sensationalism.
Please, just do me the little favor of at least watching “For the Bible tells me so” on Youtube… then you can know what God meant by “abomination” in these verses.
When it comes to religion, I only accept information from authorized sources. Was this YouTube video produced by a true prophet of God? If not, why should I watch it? I am offended by pro gay propaganda.
Don’t underestimate the power of Satan or the power of worldly governments! Remember that it was our government (and an all male congress, believe it or not) who banned our church from plural marriage! It is possible that the church may have to close some temples temporarily at least, in order to keep them from being defiled!
do you have the right to not sell to someone because they are black?
no.
because race is protected and respected… sexual orientation is not (in america).
so no, it’s not right that you can refuse to sell to someone because they are gay. are you like… 5 years old? do you not live on the same planet as the rest of us?
as for marriage in your temples… first of all I would like to make this point VERY clear… I do not know of ANY gay man or woman that wants to get married in the mormon temple to a person of the same sex. I know dozens/hundreds of gay people in multiple countries and not one has expressed any interest in preforming their wedding at a church, let alone a mormon temple. I’m not quite sure what you are worried about.
Isaac:
do you have the right to not sell to someone because they are black? no.
—
You don’t understand what a right is, apparently. Rights come from God, precede and are superior to any earthly government. I have a right to refuse to sell to anyone, black or otherwise, because I am a child of God. That is called freedom. Right now the government is trampling upon my property right to sell or refuse to sell to whomever I please.
And EVEN IF a gay couple were to want to get married in a mormon temple… not even the law can force the church to preform them… It would be like if you were unworthy to get married in the temple because you are a pedofile (just an example), and you sue the church because they don’t allow you to get married in their private building. The church has hired thousands of lawyers to make sure they won’t ever be forced to let anyone enter the temple, gay, straight, wicked, pedofile, apostate, adulterer, coffee-drinker, etc. etc. etc………………………………
it doesn’t have to do with whether or not there is an anti-discrimination law.
there are anti-discrimination laws in Spain since 2004 and a lot of Europe, but the mormon temples here remain gay-free.
the fact is that the church can select who they want in their temples, and whether they say you aren’t worthy for coffee or for gay sex, the point is they wont give you an OK to go to the temple. period.
The government could easily bring great pressure to bear upon the Church to perform gay marriages in the temple by threatening to disallow their income tax exemption for churches if they don’t. Then, with millions and even billions of dollars on the line, we could find out whether or not our leaders are as good at resisting Satan’s temptations as we hope they are. They would probably have to be a lot better at it than I am.
you think so @Jim Johnson?
don’t get me wrong, I left the church but I don’t wish it ill… I wouldn’t want to get married in your temples, and I don’t think many if any people will….
honestly I think homosexuality and mormonism (or religion in general) are fundamentally incompatible. one or the other, but both does not work.
When you say you don’t wish the Church ill, I do not believe you. If you did, you would not be on this forum advocating the anti-Mormon position. Your writing reveals some logical inconsistencies, but nothing that radical.
you can believe me or not, but I’m not lying to you.
as for your “Gays were not born that way. No one has ever proven such an absurdity and never will. We are all born with strong temptations to sin. Same thing.” comment…
without going into too much detail, I have a twin brother. we grew up in the same exact environment, same parents, same EVERYTHING basically… but when we hit puberty, he started liking girls and I started liking boys, without any effort or choice on my part.
it’s not the same thing as being born with a “temptation to sin”… (which in my opinion is complete bs anyway… this notion that one will be born with the gambling temptation, the other with a drinking temptation)
it’s not the same. you don’t choose to be gay, you choose to drink.
Amen! If the government has become so powerful it can eliminate our exercise of our property rights. We have no rights in the eyes of the government. God will have to take care of this. I have great confidence that he will.
I proudly confess to being a bigot. I am bigoted against all things evil. I am not bigoted against gays, but I am bigoted against the evil they do just as I am bigoted against my own sins. If I weren’t, why would I bother to repent?
the term “bigoted” doesn’t apply to you hating your own sins… or hating gay as a sin…
It is applied when you use your dislike/religious rejection of something people were born with to discriminate against them.
Isaac:
the term “bigoted” doesn’t apply to you hating your own sins… or hating gay as a sin…
It is applied when you use your dislike/religious rejection of something people were born with to discriminate against them.
—
Gays were not born that way. No one has ever proven such an absurdity and never will. We are all born with strong temptations to sin. Same thing.
Isaac, I know I am wasting my breath because this topic is never discussed rationally. We argue from our glands instead of our brains. But I have personally known, and known well, several gay people who clearly chose to go the gay route. Of course, I consider bisexuals to be a subclassification of gay because to me anyone who has sex with a member of his own sex is gay. My mother had thirteen years of marriage and five children before she switch over to her female “partner.” Then after many years during which I reached puberty and became a man, during which she ruined my childhood and strongly damage my adulthood, she flipped again and lived out the last twenty to thirty years with a super macho male. I have seen this repeatedly. It is just simple immorality.
I think it’s a difference in life perspectives… you say what your mom did is “immorality”, casually “switching” from one sex to another because of a whim. Life is tough, maybe you live in a bubble, maybe not, I don’t know, but for most people, life is brutal. Not only hard in the way we need to earn a living and keep a roof over our heads, but when you bring a relationship into it, it can be really tough. Don’t know your mom but I know that she did what she did for a reason, and she was trying to find her happiness and her way. We all make mistakes, we all struggle with different things. Relationships can be absolutely heart-wrenching sometimes and she probably suffered a lot too. We should be there for each other through it all, and not judge and hate.
Yes, life is tough, extremely tough. And in my case it was largely because of my mother and her sins. The only reason I am happy and successful today is because I married the right woman in the right place at the right time 35 years ago. And because of the gospel and her, my life has gradually become happy and successful in my old age. Some mistakes a person can make only once as in the case of abruptly crossing the highway without noticing the truck come at you. Choosing a gay life is more or less that kind of mistake. And regardless of what anyone says, I do believe it is a choice. We all have agency. It was certainly a choice in my mother’s case. She was committed as the mother of five little children, and she betrayed them.
How does it harm you to sell flowers to a gay couple? If you run a business, every day you sell your product to sinners. Do you ever feel like your condoning the sins of any of those customers just because you sold them a product?
The notion that it’s somehow righteous to refuse to have any interaction with people who commit sins you don’t approve of is not only one of the most ridicuous things inaginable, but is also vile beyond belief.
And utterly un-Christian.
It harms a person to sell flowers to a gay couple because it creates the illusion of normalcy which encourages the growth of the gay population in our culture. If it grows too much, our culture and civilization will become extinct. God will withdraw his protecting hand from the nation if it embraces a gay lifestyle, and our nation will be destroyed as happened so often in ancient times when a people turned away from the Lord.
Gay marriage encourages sin and the idea that bad is good and good is bad. All sex outside of a true marriage is filthy and wicked whether it is gay or straight. The Book of Mormon teaches in great plainness that if the people of European descent in the New World become ripe in wickedness they will be “swept off.” That would be very bad.
“creates the illusion of normalcy”
— it’s not an illusion, the illusion is that you and I are different.
“which encourages the growth of the gay population in our culture.”
— I think you might be confused… you can’t encourage the growth of the gay population, at least not how you are thinking. what you are getting now is more people willing to come out of the closet than 20-30 years ago, but the % remains basically the same, and always will.
“If it grows too much, our culture and civilization will become extinct.”
— again. I don’t think you are getting it. you can’t grow the gay population…. and it would never even get close to 50% let alone 100%… it’s at about 10% of males, 5-6% of females… you’re good, don’t worry ;)
You could not possibly know that people coming out of the closet accounts for all the growth in homosexuality. There is no way to measure such a thing accurately and without bias. You are simply mouthing pro-gay propaganda and wishful thinking.
I think that something has not been considered here. We carry tendencies which we developed in the pre-existence to our earth lives here, so of them good and some bad. Although we did not have physical bodies in our pre-existent life, we did have emotions and attractions, appropriate and inappropriate. Some people show gay tendencies in their early lives due to this, but it is something that is possible to overcome with God’s help! One may try to rationalize or justify this lifestyle, but it won’t do much good come judgment day!
@George Joseph DeMetz
“but it is something that is possible to overcome with God’s help”
really? you really believe that?
I bet @Jim Johnson’s mom and @John W. Redelfs dad once subscribed to this notion that you can change your sexual orientation… hell, I even subscribed to it, got married in the temple to a woman, and made the best decision of my life to get divorced a year later, stop trying to be something that I am not, let her move on with life and find someone who can be attracted to her, and live my life to its fullest.
Keeping a gay man or woman in the church, celibate, is like keeping a tiger in a zoo… they will live but their lives will be empty, grey and meaningless.
Yes, I really believe that, and the reason I believe that is because it has been done before a number of times!
Science says otherwise.
Science? Science doesn’t even know about the pre-existence! So called science hasn’t even figured out that there is a spirit in man despite all the testimonies and evidence!
Science may say otherwise, Brother Martindale. But the history of science show that science is often wrong. I consider science. I believe my religion. Not the same.
True! This is an outstanding point. It is simply none of the governments business who I sell or refuse to sell flowers too. I have rights! Whose flowers are they anyway? It is great hyprocrisy for the gay crowd to demand rights and pressure the government to deprive me of mine.
It’s up to the proprietor of said establishment to decide with whom he shall do business with. That’s what’s at issue, freedom of (dis)association, and it should NOT have to meet YOUR criteria of whether refusal of a gay couple’s business is “vile” or not. You have the “right” to take your business elsewhere! WHY, pray tell, does it matter to you, say that you have some manaical desire to control the consensual choices of other adults IAW your own peculiar beliefs?
George Joseph DeMetz said:
Yes, I really believe that, and the reason I believe that is because it has been done before a number of times!
—
I’m sure it has been done, but I have no way of knowing what the odds are. Perhaps only one in a thousand is able to repent from this particular sin. So what? Can you think of any way to better spend your years in mortality than trying to repent of all your sins? In D&C 137 or 138 the Lord makes clear that he will judge us not only for what we do here, but what we would have done if allowed to remain in mortality. I imagine gay sex is as hard to repent of as a heroine addiction or even worse, tobacco. The only thing that really matters is that we are trying our hardest to choose the right.
@Jim Johnson
“Can you think of any way to better spend your years in mortality than trying to repent of all your sins?”
Yes. Yes I can. I can spend my years in mortality being happy. In the next life, if there is one, God will love me because he knows I do my best and that he has created me this way, and because God is love.
That is what I believe, and I have a testimony of that.
Jim, I am not trying to sound cruel, uncaring, and condescending, however, if you don’t even know that there is a God, then you obviously don’t have a testimony through the Holy Spirit. God absolutely did not make you that way! Ultimately, we all become what we are due to our own free agency and choices. It may be thoughts, feelings, and emotions which were developed in our pre-existent life and carried over into this life, but remember God does not make a person gay and then turn around and condemn him for being gay! That would definitely be an unjust God, and if God were unjust, then he would cease to be God. All of us, or at least most of us, are tempted to break the law of chastity in one way or another. However, if we resist those temptations, I know, and
have a true testimony from the Spirit, that God will help us overcome them. It may be termed a miracle for that to happen, but for God, what else is new?!
so @George Joseph DeMetz
if a gay turning straight is a miracle, and as has been stated could be a 1 in a 1000+ chance, what happens to all the other gay mormon people who don’t have the miracle happen to them?
I’ll tell you what happens: depression, destruction, death.
I doubt if any gay living has suffered as much depression as I have without committing suicide, and I’m straight. Trying to repent does not lead to depression. Not trying to repent causes the Spirit to withdraw and it produces a deep depression just as reliably as depressive mental illness does. Doing what is right always works to bring about less depression, not more. And it is always right to try to repent of your sins. Unfortunately, some people lose their way and become confused about what a sin is. Sin is any transgression of God’s (Jesus) law. And one of the most beautiful, powerful, just and merciful of God’s laws is the Law of Chastity. Living that law will make you happy not depressed. And trying to live that law is the next best thing.
Yes, that’s what happens when Satan gets one to that point!
Wickedness never was happiness. I am sorry you have a testimony of something false. That testimony will not take you where you want to go. At the end of the day, it is impossible to find happiness without complying with God’s law. Your beef isn’t with the Church. It is with God.
Absolutely not! I will give you just one classic example! Science tries foolishly even today to claim that OBE’s are only a result of the brain playing tricks in a feeble effort to keep their left wing beliefs alive despite hard evidence to the contrary! However, the following is just one example of the many they foolishly discount. There was a feeble lady who had an OBE in the hospital while the doctors were desperately trying to revive her from (ironically) a coma that she suddenly went in to before she was clinically dead. Later, when she awoke she tried to tell the doctors what she saw, and they were amazed at what she related to them. She even told one doctor that she saw a red shoe on top of the tall hospital building. The doctor, being very curious sent
a young orderly to climb from the outside to the top of the building. I think you can guess what he found there on top of the building! It was the red shoe! Now, I’m sure that there will be a lot of excuses and ridiculous theories to try to explain away the obvious as there were for many other such occurrences! Why? To defend the secular left wing beliefs! However, it is very obvious to me what has happened in all these cases. So call science (really false science) was exposed in the light of a true OBE where the spirit left the body!!!!!!!
Thank you folks. I was thinking of returning to more than the hour for testimony and getting to know the brothers and sisters in Anchorage but after reading this enlightened conversation I believe one hour is more than long enough. I’ll continue to do my service helping the poor. I don’t need to be around the vile attitudes towards, “Any other human being”. Come on folks you have so much hatred floating around while talking about the subject you started going after each other when you couldn’t agree. No one will ever say I didn’t make every effort to make everyone around me feel at home and welcome. What happened to treating others with so much kindness and love that they wanted to be a part of your community and feel that same joy in their heart?? Too outdated?
Hatred and vileness is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is hateful and vile the way the gays in this country are trying to FORCE their minority opinion on the rest of us using the totalitarian power of government. I hope they never suffer a predictable backlash.
The Lord’s standard of Chastity is a beautiful and essential one. I support the church’s stance on marriage and civil unions. I also support the church’s stance on http://www.mormonsandgays.org It is an official church website that calls keeping God’s standards. Both standards for chastity AND charity. From the site: “The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals DO NOT CHOOSE TO HAVE SUCH ATTRACTIONS, they do choose how to respond to them. ” (all-caps added).
http://www.ldsvoicesofhope.org is a video project put on by northstarlds.org . this project shows faithful latter-day saints affected by same-sex attraction who are committed to keeping their covenants. North Star’s members are in the hundreds.
As I stated in my previous comment, God does not “create” us to have improper attractions. I honestly believe that these attractions were developed over time in our pre-existent state.
The issue is what the LORD thinks of homosexuality. And the scriptures are clear on that. Now, I might consider Ezra’s labelling of them as “Sodomites” (reminds me of the hypocritcal warden in the “Shawshank Redemption” and his threat to remove protection for Andy DuFresquene) to be somewhat “over-the-top”, but without the polemics I do likewise share a personal revulsion for homosexual practices. Having three sons and four daughters, and an ever-increasing crop of grandkids will do that.
Nevertheless, we have to separate our disgust for the sin(s) and yet some compassion and love for the sinner(s). After all, the Savior does that for us, and we are commanded to, in effect, “pay it foward”.
This has been a very interesting debate to read.
To everyone that have read the “words” of the “prophets” and the Word of God, to you I have two things to say.
First: The Word of God is just that, GODS sovereign commands to His people! They have cultural implications that have different meanings when interpreted in the light of each new generation, that is why the Word of God is LIVING and relevant to all dispensations. and on that note, those that have discussed Sodom and its sins are spot on, Homosexuality is NOT now nor has it EVER been a sin of Sodom. You can refute me in your ignorance all you want but it makes no never mind at all. I can both speak and read the original language, I have several degrees in Theology and Linguistics.
Second: You claim to have read and know the words of God’s prophets yet you don’t even follow Him? You believe that Brigham Young was the successor when Joseph Smith, Jr. himself appointed Joseph Smith, III to be his legitimate successor. So, from the most early days of the Restoration, you have been led astray by Men who held no Keys at all and wouldn’t know the voice of God if He was standing in their face shouting nose to nose with them. So, all of your arguments are moot and pointless.
And for all of my fellow GLBT Mormon brothers and sisters, Come on over and visit the Community of Christ, you will find a LOVING, WELCOMING Home where the Voice of Prophecy is still speaking Loud and Clear today!
Nicholas, I was never one to put too much stock in so called “higher education. It has been my experience that too many of those so called educated people are like Ward Churchill! Have3 you really read that account of Sodom carefully?!? The men there were like dogs! Not only were they homosexuals, they were bisexuals! They didn’t care what sex the person was, they just wanted to “know them”! They wanted Lot, the angels, and Lot’s daughters! And, by the way, we LDS also accept Brigham Young as well as all his true successors as prophets, seers, and revelators! Please don’t be deceived into thinking that your little community will fill the earth as Daniel prophesied!
Thank you Ezra, for your articles. We are lucky to have a few left so brave as to point out correct principles. To anyone on the fence about this or other hard subjects: where do we gain our insight? A careful study of history and God’s law and counsel? Or pop-culture? Who’s counsel IS pop-culture anyway? The Hebrews always fell away and failed as they absorbed the popular culture around them. Perhaps THOSE messages are the ones that should offend our souls as we find COMFORT in the counsel of our loving Heavenly Father. The Lord chastises those He loves.
Mathew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
We can not love God’s law and also be offended by it.
Ezra please come back to facebook!
The Church Of Jesus Christ will never marry homosexuals in their holy temples and if anyone believes that day will come, I believe and know God will burn every temple to the ground before such evil dares to step foot in Heavenly Father’s holy house. I believe our church will never allow this and if by some chance the world in the near future demands such a law, the church will close thier temples, stop all marriages in our chapels. The holy priesthood of God will never be defiled in such a manner as to marry 2 men or 2 woman, its impossible!
Hi Susan,
Replace “homosexuals” with “multi-race couples” and you sound like you could be a mormon 100 years ago.
Not the same thing! Nothing makes me cringe more than when people compare gay marriage to interracial marriage. Interracial marriage is still marriage and brings forth a family. There is still male/female mother/father (and if no kids aunt/uncle) Who is the father and the mother in a gay relationship? Aunt or uncle? Who decides? Where is the opposition in all things? I am not deceived. Gay marriage has nothing to do with love and acceptance. It is to destroy the family and you are being used by evil people. I have heard every argument and they are the same. So obviously a trap good people are falling for. Your sin is no different from my own when I broke the law of chastity. Anyone can repent. Don’t be deceived.
So Susan are your saying that because Homosexuals want to defile gods temples that I should therefore be denied the privilege of worshiping in the temple?
Isaac would you Please Elaborate on what you mean?
what I mean is that it is all about perspective. if you would ask a “susan” in 1900, she would probably say almost the same exact things about god burning down temples if the church allowed blacks to marry whites in the temple, or blacks to be in the temple for any sealing ceremony besides being sealed as a slave (e.g. a slave to Joseph Smith).
I’m sure with more time the bigotry will fade away and a few generations later mormons will look back and see how small minded people were.
Gods Law will never change. The scriptures have shown His response to disobedience. Sodom and Gomorrah. The sins preempting the Great flood. Even if the government forces any church to marry same gender couples it is only to death do they part. The LDS church will never seal homosexuals to their partner. If it be by bayonet then I fear the Lord will step in.
Homosexuals already have access to worshiping in the temple, so long as they follow Gods laws. They can not practice homosexuality i.e. same sex dating, co-habitation, or any type of sexual relations outside of marriage. With that said while a person may have same sex attraction if they are not acting on it and understand the limitations of that kind of life they can be worthy members of the church and should be seen as anyone else, as we all have our own struggles in life. Judge not lest ye be judged sort of thing. Scriptures are clear marriage= man&woman, sex=man&woman only. Any other way is against the plan of salvation and against eternal progression. I would think that the church would shut down the temples affected partially or fully than defy God’s Laws.
Hmm didn’t know that, I would however think that anyone that does do dating treads a dangerous line, i would think it would be better to avoid the practice or at least make sure your group dating.
You use the scriptures, as a way to condemn other people, and say they are not following gods laws, tells me that you don’t really read your scriptures, you just pick and choose the ones you think sound correct to you. I’m sure you eat shell fish, and feel fine about that, even though that is against gods laws, you don’t stone your kids if they are disobedient, like it says to do in gods laws, you don’t keep slaves, nor would you force your daughter to marry her rapist, and you don’t HATE your family, in order to follow Jesus. READ YOUR SCRIPTURES if you don’t believe me, it is all in there.
I still believe this is an attempt to destroy the traditional family and has nothing to do with tolerance and love. A lot of people are deceived and it is sad. Look at the major movements the past 50-60 years (though they actually began in the 1860’s) They all want to destroy the traditional family. Abortion, feminism, no fault divorce, etc. Even in our literature adultery became not a sin but a declaration of love! Romantic and erotic love replaced the more eternal marital love. The destruction of the father is another.
I could argue all day why homosexuality is wrong. But that is what they want. I’d rather focus on defending God’s plan. It is the only road to happiness and even for heteroes a difficult path sometimes. Anyone can repent. Don’t be deceived.
I used to argue with people about issues of homosexuality, etc. I now know that is what they want. They want to divide us and make us angry. Some of us have seen how homosexuality, open marriages, polyamory, etc have destroyed lives and it makes us emotional. They know this. I say “they” because I am not sure who exactly is behind the sudden push to change the definitions of marriage. I think gay rights groups are simply useful idiots. Sorry if I sound crazy but I can’t think of any other explanation.
Can these Gays to try to be a Virgin before marriage? Sex before any kind marriage is not good at? I would like to see if LGBT can wait for sex.
I worry, Ezra.
This post manages to hurl several stones at the reputations and actions of our homosexual brothers and sisters.
You write: “The homosexual rights movement started with just wanting sodomy to be legal and not be imprisoned for their ‘personal’ behavior.”
WHO wanted this? To WHOM did they petition? WHEN? WHERE? You’ve made large, sweeping claims that I believe unfairly portray and poorly summarize the inception of the gay rights movement.
Without citations, your claims are unsubstantiated. Your lack of relevant certification/credentials/degree(s) virtually disqualify your words as credible, relevant, or valuable.
I encourage you to research this topic and cite sources as you write. I think your opinions and perceptions will change dramatically.
JC
Awfercryin’-outloud…
“Sodomy” was both a crime in EVERY state of the Union, as well as across the Pond (the UKs foremost mathematician and computer scientist of the 20th century, Alan Turing was convicted of “indecency” in 1954, which set back the British nuclear program by at least ten years).
Do you not recall the “Stonewall” riots of some 45 years ago? The gays of NYC had enough of the NYPD’s “Vice Squad” harassing them (I guess it wasn’t “Fun City” for EVERYONE, Mayor Lindsay’s otherwise liberalism notwithstanding. This is considered to be a pivotal event, be it for bad or good, that led to changes in attitudes and finally laws regarding homosexual conduct.
It’s now gone well beyond “tolerance” and is becoming imposition.
Actually, Illinois decriminalized sodomy in 1961. The Stonewall Riots occurred eight years later (1969) in New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots).
Ironically, the legalization of sodomy, one of the major points of contention that gave rise to the NYC riots, was already legal just 800 miles west of New York (Carter, David. “Stonewall: The Riots that Sparked the Gay Revolution,” St. Martin’s Press. See p. 15).
That’s how you make a point without conveying to your audience (albeit unintentionally) that you have only a cursory understanding of whatever you’re speaking about.
This is precisely why I worry! Scholarship isn’t quite dead in America, but it IS dying.
Let’s discuss this, but with accuracy and verifiable data instead of generalization.
JC
The article is interesting however the church allows the bishop and selected members of the temple to ‘marry’ or preform ‘marriages’ and the state or government gives license for those to do so. When it comes to state involvement in same sex ‘marriages’ the church can then forbid the priesthood leaders and temple sealers to solemnize weddings. There is a difference between a marriage and a sealing. “Marriage” is recognized by the state as a legal contract between two parties and because of Law and judgement there must be state certified vendors or administrators (in the event of a dissolution of contract of ownership and/or support) A “marriage” can take place by the state and then the “sealing” within the temple, which is ordinance uncontrolled by the state
God LOVES the SINNER…..But HATES the SIN! Sure God LOVES His children….that’s NOT the problem! The problem is that his children don’t LOVE HIM! He tells the Sodomite that He HATES the homosexual lifestyle! And the unrepentant homosexual says; “No you must love me…because your a God of love…NO MATTER WHAT I DO!”
Sorry friends those who CHOOSE to REBEL against Heavenly Father and “The Way of Happiness” WILL BE CASTE OUT! The REBELLIOUS are sent to be with their father; Lucifer!! IF YOU TRULY LOVE the Sodomites then WARN THEM that they are DAMNING THEMSELVES! Those sad souls who CHOOSE to be Sodomites are NOT REWARDED by Heavenly Father….. They are PUNISHED! THIS IS THE TRUTH! DO YOU REALLY LOVE THEM??? THEN WARN THEM!!!! It’s not complicated folks…
Temples are not made to get married in, but to be sealed in. This issue is null and void.
Tami is right there is a difference between marriage and a sealing. And by the way Denmark temple doesn’t preform marriages but only Sealings for this very reason. It will happen eventually at most temples around the world that marriages will be preformed civilly and then if worthy, a man and woman may go to a temple for a sealing.
I have notice that the Church cannot fight for God’s scared covenants and they allowing these gays have rights to redine marriage. Now I know that the Church is being unclean in temple in the Lord’s eyes.
Well, this turned into a big argument. If I was wired to be gay I would get a urologist to give me medication to neutralize testosterone so I wouldn’t have desires. I’ve never been a fan of so called willpower. I suffer severe clinical depression and anxiety and I can’t just wish it away. If that is the type of condition that drives same sex attraction I think meds are worth a try. Just my guess.